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The Lebensraum Lie - Theory

Discussion in 'WWII General' started by ZeJanIt, Aug 12, 2016.

  1. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    I would like to see some sources on the above. England even declared war on Finland for her actions towards the Soviet Union and alliance with Germany.
     
  2. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    Such plans existed, but they did not indicate an intention to attack the soviet oil field, after all before the war, the US had plans for the eventuality of a war with Britain , and after the war for a war with the SU .
     
  3. belasar

    belasar Court Jester

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    Nothing prevented the Polish Government in Exile from declaring War on the Soviet Union if they thought it would serve a purpose, but they realistically accepted that it would not, possibly on some advice from the Anglo-French. Germany was the principle threat, and the SU would not have acted absent of a German invasion.

    As to the Baku plans, there is more to these than LJAd concedes. They were developed in response to both internal pressure within Anglo-French alliance to do something during the Sitzkrieg/Phony War and a desire to punish the SU for her alliance with Germany as well as her adventurism in Finland.

    They were one half of dueling plans developed by rival General Staff's to take some action that would not in turn place 'their' nations interests at risk. Britain proposed floating mines down the Rhine to disrupt traffic and production. France saw this as a pretext for retaliation on France by Germany directly, Britain saw the French plan as a threat to her Middle East interests. This led to the quasi compromise of landings in neutral Norway to send troops and arms to 'aid' Finland during the Winter War and deny Germany Iron Ore from another neutral, Sweden.

    This rather convoluted plan never got off the ground, but did help direct German attention to Norway and effectively sealed her fate to be occupied until after the war ended. Largely due Churchill's determination to get the allies into Norway anyway he could including a stunt that was the Altmark Incident. While that was spectacularly successful, it was strategically meaningless (for victory) and led directly to the debacle that was Battle for Norway and the needless suffering of the Norwegian people.

    Chamberlain got saddled with the blame (partially deserved) and Churchill rewarded with the office of Prime Minister.
     
  4. OhneGewehr

    OhneGewehr New Member

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    The free polish government for sure had other things to do than declaring war against the Soviet Union. They could be considered mad if they had done this.
    But the relaitionship couldn't be worse anyway. Wasn't there always a doubt about the accidental death of Sikorski?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C5%82adys%C5%82aw_Sikorski

    Even Hitler mentioned the Baku-plans in one of his speeches. Calling it only a game plan is far away from the truth, there were reconnaissance flights and planes were already transferred to the Middle East.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Pike
     
  5. belasar

    belasar Court Jester

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    Not so much, neither the British or French plan had much chance of being enacted as it put the opposing ally at risk and as both nations were really only playing at war at this stage, neither was prepared to take one for the team.

    Its true importance was to act as a distraction away from where their focus should be. In the American Civil War Lincoln wisely shut down efforts in the North and South to widen the war to include European direct involvement, famously saying one war at a time. Here both Britain and France tried to push their way into a Russo-Finnish war when they were not prepared to take active measures against a country that was actually at war with them and was able to hurt them in real time.

    There is no guarantee that had they kept their eye on the ball the collapse of 1940 would be averted, but it certain didn't help matters.
     
  6. OhneGewehr

    OhneGewehr New Member

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    The possible effects of the attacks were vastly overestimated, maybe they would recognize it soon enough to stop them.
     
  7. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    Pike was a non sequitur : if it succeeded, the result would be a German-Soviet alliance. But it is unlikely that even ONE bomb would be dropped on Baku . If Baku was hurt, this does not mean that Germany would have even ONE gallon of fuel less . It would also not mean that the SU would be hurt . It would also have no effect on Fall Gelb and Fall Rot,as Pike was still discussed on 10 may 1940 .

    Pike was founded on wrong assumptions and would be suicidal . A good thing that there were some people with a grain of common sense in Paris and London .
     
  8. OhneGewehr

    OhneGewehr New Member

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    Pike was abandoned after the Fall of France. German fuel supply wasn't important anymore when you need every plane to defend the Commonwealth.
    Damage was already done when the Wehrmacht found the documents and handed them over to Stalin. The Soviet Union ignored warrnings towards Barbarossa not out of stupidity.
     

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